tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post499430259102055211..comments2023-09-21T07:37:58.714-04:00Comments on Pastor Bob's Musings: MINISTERS: ALL THE MEMBERS OF THE CONGREGATIONPastor Bobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-29921776625171888722010-08-11T19:12:38.232-04:002010-08-11T19:12:38.232-04:00Thanks Christine. Calvin actually wanted teachers...Thanks Christine. Calvin actually wanted teachers for the Church to be ordained as a separate group from pastors/preachers. Interesting, isn't it, that we aren't willing to do so for Christian Educators? Personally I think it is a power issue. MWS don't want to share their power. And they (and the Sessions of the congregations they serve) definitely don't want presbyteries to set salary minimums for Christian Educators.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-40206589845098939492010-08-11T09:05:22.625-04:002010-08-11T09:05:22.625-04:00Reading Dairmaid MacCulloch's Christianity: Th...Reading Dairmaid MacCulloch's Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years (which I highly recommend) reminded me that Calvin himself was ordained by no church, and probably preferred to refer to himself as doctor (i.e., teacher) rather than pastor.Christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-87273935754059944892010-08-03T23:53:43.325-04:002010-08-03T23:53:43.325-04:00Oh, and Alan you may have noticed that in this blo...Oh, and Alan you may have noticed that in this blog I cut the gordian knot about ordination. :)Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-77313602707058847832010-08-03T23:50:31.796-04:002010-08-03T23:50:31.796-04:00And to be frank the folks from the Netherlands wer...And to be frank the folks from the Netherlands were the real radicals. They wanted to write a Christian Philosophy AND organize Christian associations for everything from labor unions to chemistry classes. Back in the 1880's Abraham Kuyper insisted that labor unions have seats on the boards of corporations because the laborers brought just as much to the table as did the investors! Here in America Kuyper would have been considered a socialist!<br /><br />For the historians in the crowd he taught a truly great series at Princeton Seminary back around 1910 that has been called the Kuyper Lectures ever since. Alas almost no student at PTS ever finds out who Kuyper was without asking.<br /><br />Right Alan?Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-29896644493092317932010-08-03T23:46:01.031-04:002010-08-03T23:46:01.031-04:00Beloved et al. I have a suspicion that part of th...Beloved et al. I have a suspicion that part of the problem with teaching people historical, literary, etc. criticism is that the folks that translated geschichte into English used the word "criticism" rather than "academic study." I know lots of folks would have objected in any case but for the poor Christian going to college and hearing the word "criticism" referring to the Bible in her first Bible class in college was too much of a shock. It took me a whole year at Fuller Seminary before I would start using higher criticism after I learned it in college from someone who studied in Germany! (kidding)<br /><br />Those Reformed types from the Netherlands (who were also doing higher criticism but didn't use the term) were totally accepted. Go figure.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-36482083187075701622010-07-30T12:33:09.288-04:002010-07-30T12:33:09.288-04:00I wrassle with this one myself. On the one hand, ...I wrassle with this one myself. On the one hand, seminary and the process of preparation and discernment are profoundly helpful if you're going to teach and preach. It's really useful for the whole "Minister of the Word" thing.<br /><br />I serve a congregation that's almost entirely from an evangelical background, and I've found that teaching historical critical method works. Once folks realize you're not trying to undercut the Bible, but giving it depth and context that makes it even more real and relevant, they seriously glom on to it.<br /><br />On the other, I think the sacramental part of my ordination...meaning, I'm the guy who baptizes and serves communion...isn't really something that should be limited to me, any more than I should be the only one out there telling people about the transforming grace of the Gospel.Beloved Spearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14568697883886058321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-6300241110010623422010-07-30T03:10:22.907-04:002010-07-30T03:10:22.907-04:00Aric I'm with you on preaching and teaching (...Aric I'm with you on preaching and teaching (to say nothing of earning a salary. I would say that both preaching and teaching are gifts of the Spirit. How we decide who gets paid and who doesn't is a problem, isn't it?<br /><br />BTW I taught Kerygma classes in So Cal, Upstate NY and now in the Philly area. I also taught a critical class on the book of Revelation in rural PA. We spent a lot of time on different ways of reading the text.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-16544120833115039202010-07-30T00:46:43.997-04:002010-07-30T00:46:43.997-04:00Alan,
I am not in a university town. I am in rura...Alan,<br /><br />I am not in a university town. I am in rural Colorado - the plains not the mountains, and I have been doing historical critical stuff in Bible Study every week. I'm getting a great response. It is an overgeneralization, but I think most pastors who feel like they can't teach historical critical method in their churches it is because of their inadequacy, not because the lay people are intolerant.<br /><br />On the ordination issue, I am with you Bob, with some regret because I for entirely selfish reasons want to be paid to preach and teach and lead worship as they are my passions.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-25191780469645139792010-07-27T17:39:55.119-04:002010-07-27T17:39:55.119-04:00@ Christine
Wow, I could unite the whole denomina...@ Christine<br /><br />Wow, I could unite the whole denomination against me! Bring the right, left and the middle together!Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-26886599330709517222010-07-26T14:11:21.079-04:002010-07-26T14:11:21.079-04:00True enough. One of the unseemlier aspects of the...True enough. One of the unseemlier aspects of the arguments about who may be ordained is how invested some folks (on any side of the issue) are in the status of ordination. On the other hand, a radical proposal to abolish ordination may be one thing that would unite them all (against the proposer, that is).Christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-91103769468800749582010-07-26T14:05:05.648-04:002010-07-26T14:05:05.648-04:00@ Christine
"So, are you going to propose an...@ Christine<br /><br />"So, are you going to propose an overture for next GA to abolish ordination?"<br /><br />Alas I think we are so busy arguing about who should or shouldn't be ordained that no one will hear the question should we ordain at all.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-51848940154956046912010-07-26T12:09:25.780-04:002010-07-26T12:09:25.780-04:00Oh, I should add the effect of archeology on histo...Oh, I should add the effect of archeology on historical criticism. I keep up with that but as a layman (LOL).Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-79027368998864239012010-07-26T12:08:32.602-04:002010-07-26T12:08:32.602-04:00@Alan
I can't speak for other pastors but taug...@Alan<br />I can't speak for other pastors but taught a variety of Kerygma classes to those who wanted to learn and came out for the classes. They learned all about 2 Isaiah, Paul's letters as over against Pauline letters, etc. I admit I don't talk about that in sermons (although I will talk about what the problems were that the NT writers were working against like Gnosticism. Preached on that yesterday). <br /><br />I do think, contrary to some scholars, that Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians were written by Paul but not the pastoral letters.<br /><br />Having said that the discipline changes constantly and you have to keep up. <br /><br />One other thought: how many MWS keep up with their Greek and Hebrew? I have with Greek but really need to take a refresher course in Hebrew.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-19418343396069671172010-07-26T12:00:58.535-04:002010-07-26T12:00:58.535-04:00I have to admit I found my own ordination as elder...I have to admit I found my own ordination as elder a few years ago to be a moving and meaningful experience. But I imagine I would have had the same reaction if it had been called "commissioning" instead.<br /><br />Alan: My congregation serves (partially) a university population, so our pastors don't have that problem, fortunately. But I can well imagine there are congregations out there that have no interest in what the pastor learned in seminary, alas.Christinenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-46786352095110728482010-07-26T11:40:08.304-04:002010-07-26T11:40:08.304-04:00Interesting how we emphasize the need for educatio...Interesting how we emphasize the need for education, yet from a completely non-scientific sampling of blogs, etc., I continue to be interested in the number of pastors who claim that they're either uncomfortable or actively prevented from sharing what they learn in seminary with their congregation, particularly regarding history and higher criticism.<br /><br />But I agree Bob that it is hard, if not impossible to fit ordination and "the priesthood of all believers" together in any meaningful way.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-35599461233439494522010-07-26T10:17:29.028-04:002010-07-26T10:17:29.028-04:00I was thinking of preaching as part of the role of...I was thinking of preaching as part of the role of pastor. But seriously some may have the gift of preaching and not the gift of being a pastor and vice versa.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2113520706057661449.post-15399105835795942462010-07-26T09:47:32.226-04:002010-07-26T09:47:32.226-04:00I fervently agree that everyone should be held to ...I fervently agree that everyone should be held to a higher standard, not just ordained folks. Otherwise we've just entered a new clericalism.<br /><br />You've talked eloquently about the pastor role for MWSs, but what about the preacher role? It seems to me that that is where the Reformed stress on education comes from. From my pewsitter's perspective, my preferences (biases?) are for a preacher who's educated, who knows more than a little about church history, exegesis, biblical languages, etc. Of course that doesn't necessarily justify the current seminary system as we know it. As you say, we all have different gifts.<br /><br />So, are you going to propose an overture for next GA to abolish ordination? As if all of our current arguments weren't fun enough already! :)Christine Kooinoreply@blogger.com